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Post ID	Date & Time	Game Date	Function

#3275	05/06/2013 10:00:27 pm
OTT9 Joined: 04/21/2013 Posts: 10 Inactive	Perhaps I may be wrong about these things, but... 1. Pitching Statistics. ERA and WHIP aren't bad ways to judge pitchers, but if people tend to judge batters by Average, OBP and Slugging, why do so many people undervalue these same stats for pitchers? If OPS is considered a fair indicator of overall batting skill, surely OPS against would be a decent indicator of overall pitching skill? 2. The designated hitter rule. Professional sports players are already getting paid more than enough money to play without having somebody bat for them or field for them, so why do so many leagues, including the AL, use it? I just think that players should be good at multiple aspects of the game instead of getting in on the basis of being a really good hitter or a really good pitcher. That's just my thoughts anyway... (PS: and yes, I'm also hinting that I'd prefer Broken Bat to not have the DH :P) Updated Monday, May 6 2013 @ 10:04:22 pm PDT

#3276	05/07/2013 7:06:18 am
Mig2012 Joined: 09/26/2012 Posts: 547 Inactive	Funny you mention these things. Just a few days ago I was thinking about the very same thing about pitching statistics, and I couldn’t agree more with you. I too believe OPS against is better as an overall pitching skill indicator than ERA or WHIP. Regarding the DH rule, I don’t have a strong opinion for or against it. I know many defend the game is much more interesting without it, but the truth is without the DH there are fewer runs scores on average, and I guess the scoring part appeals to the general public more than the strategy elements that exist in the game without the DH. I don’t know if it’s because of the DH, but I do find the AL more interesting to follow than the NL. In the future, I don’t see the DH being removed. Right now that’s the only thing distinguishing the AL from NL, which doesn’t make sense because with the interleague play, the teams moving between leagues, it feels more and more like just one league with 6 divisions, MLB. Perhaps what should happen next is for teams, both in AL and NL, to choose what rule they like the most and follow it when they play at home, throughout the season. My guess is if that happens, the DH would become the norm. But I think the major reason why the DH will never go away is because the player’s union will never agree to remove it. That would send a lot of players to an early retirement.

#3277	05/07/2013 8:44:40 am
Krakonico Joined: 01/04/2013 Posts: 312 Inactive	http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9158659/mlb-designated-hitter-spread-nl

#3278	05/07/2013 10:07:41 am
admin Joined: 01/27/2010 Posts: 5023 Administrator	One of the issues with pitcher OPS is that traditionally you couldn’t compute it from the most common pitcher statistics. In order to compute the slugging portion, you’d need to know how many of each type of extra bases hits a pitcher has surrendered. Traditionally, doubles and triples and sometimes home runs given up by a pitcher have not been tracked. In terms of the DH, I sort of agree that it violates the symmetry of the game (everybody hits, everybody plays the field). However, I don’t see it going away and the majority of competitive baseball uses the DH now (AL, NCAA, most minor league games, Pacific League in Japan, Mexican League, World Baseball Classic). Steve

#3854	07/04/2013 7:40:13 am
ianheath653 Joined: 07/18/2012 Posts: 35 Inactive	I've always wondered how many people typically against the DH rule grew up rooting for NL teams, and how many people who don't have a problem with it grew up rooting for AL teams. Where I lived, there's a pretty even split between Phillies and Orioles fans, and it seemed like those on the Philadelphia side usually didn't like it, and those on the Baltimore side were fine with it.

#4951	10/15/2013 2:12:48 pm
weaponx84 Joined: 10/02/2013 Posts: 16 Inactive	I am a NL guy, born in raised in the Atlanta area and a huge Braves fan. And this year especially I really wish there was a DH in the NL. For selfish reason of course. Chris Johnson could have gotten more AB's and same for Evan Gattis and he wouldn't have been in the outfield were he doesn't belong. Or could have had Dan Uggla, etc...I have come to the conclusion that it is only a matter of time before the NL adopts the DH, it is used really everywhere but the NL.I would agree that these guys are getting paid crazy amounts of money and should know how to hit. But for the most part a pitcher in high school or college is only focusing on pitching and being told to forget about hitting all together because there is a DH. It actually puts the AL at an unfair advantage in a way so why not make the playing field even?

#4952	10/15/2013 2:49:34 pm
Mig2012 Joined: 09/26/2012 Posts: 547 Inactive	Actually, the DH rule benefits the NL teams more, as it's easier for them to adapt to the DH when they play Al teams away. It's harder for AL teams to find a pitcher who can be productive at bat when they play away against NL teams.

#4954	10/15/2013 5:05:37 pm
Solana_Steve Joined: 03/10/2010 Posts: 123 Inactive	I grew up in the Bay Area watching both the A’s and Giants – so I guess I had exposure to both. I’m not a big fan of the DH – I’m not against a little more offense, but it kind of ruins the symmetry of the game: every player must bat and every player must play the field. It kind of reminds me of what they’ve done with indoor volleyball by adding the Libero. Suddenly you have this short player who doesn’t have to play up at the net and kind just hangs back and can be a specialized defensive player. In volleyball, everyone on the court or sand should have to do it all or be so great in one thing that it makes up for their deficiencies in the other area. Steve Updated Tuesday, October 15 2013 @ 5:06:03 pm PDT

#4960	10/16/2013 10:03:13 am
weaponx84 Joined: 10/02/2013 Posts: 16 Inactive	I meant an unfair advantage in the fact that there can be a guy Paul Molitor, David Ortiz, Edgar Martinez, Frank Thomas etc... all who were/are great hitters but not so good to down right terrible in the field and in the NL you have live with it but in the AL you just put him in the DH spot and go on with your lineup card. It makes the managers job easier for what like 142 out of 162 regular season games. Even further you can sign a vetern guy who just can't do anything defensively anymore but can still hit like a Eddie Murray or Jim Thome type that could be a leader in the clubhouse and still be a good hitter for your team. Were as a NL team is less likely to sign a guy like that because he of his defense.

#4961	10/16/2013 3:38:57 pm
Mig2012 Joined: 09/26/2012 Posts: 547 Inactive	Ok, but in those 142 games, all the other NL teams play by the same rules, so they can't put a David Ortiz in the DH spot either. If you're going to compare the rules from both leagues you've got to do it with interleague matches, even if there aren't many of those throughout the season. Sure, an AL team is stronger with a David Ortiz in the DH spot, but a NL team, playing with the DH rule, can put a pinch hitter in that spot, and he will be competent enough. On the other hand, without the DH rule, you have NL pitchers who are very competent in keeping the inning alive with bunting and whatnot, they even have guys like Kershaw who can drive Home Runs, while the AL pitchers are just easy outs. Updated Wednesday, October 16 2013 @ 4:30:40 pm PDT

#4962	10/16/2013 5:44:08 pm
admin Joined: 01/27/2010 Posts: 5023 Administrator	I don't know if there are really that many great hitting NL pitchers. And there have been some good hitting AL pitchers (you just never see them hit). Yankees used to have Rick Rhoden who actually DH'ed a few games. I think most of the advantage is that AL teams have built their lineups around having a DH. He's usually batting in a high impact spot in the order and removing him is often like removing the keystone from an arch. Steve

#4963	10/17/2013 3:48:42 am
Mig2012 Joined: 09/26/2012 Posts: 547 Inactive	Yeah, that goes to show how much trouble an AL team is in when they can’t use a DH. Regarding pitching, some AL pitchers may be the exception to the norm, but I find it very hard to believe they can be as competent at bat as NL pitchers. They don’t even get batting practice most of the time. I looked up some stats about this, and according to ESPN, the average OPS for pitchers in this year’s regular season was: .224 for AL .341 for NL Source: http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/batting/seasontype/2/split/77

#4966	10/17/2013 6:38:52 am
Legends Joined: 06/14/2013 Posts: 13 Inactive	Rookie pitcher Randall Delgado was batting about .200 by the end of this season.

#4967	10/17/2013 7:34:38 am
weaponx84 Joined: 10/02/2013 Posts: 16 Inactive	You can't really compare it with interleague because it is only about 10 games a year that a AL teams pitchers have to go bat, for the most part the AL managers don't even want there pitchers to run out ground ball outs let alone really practicing hitting. With few and rare exceptions the pitchers spot in the lineup is going to be a easy out with probably around a 3rd of the time those outs being by strikeout. NL managers have to come up with a way to give the pitcher a productive out which is kind of a oxymoron to me. Its like a winning defeat. The main thing is that the DH rule is pretty much everywhere except the NL, even their farm teams will use the DH much more because they are usually in divisions with AL teams as well and they play them regularly. It has been around for what 45 years or so? Just embrace it and move on. I bet if you gave all the NL managers the option of using a DH or a pitchers they would all want that extra bat in the lineup and let the pitcher focus on what he does best, PITCH. Also pretty neat stats in a somewhat related issue http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1654175-what-is-baseballs-superior-overall-league-the-al-or-the-nl

#4969	10/17/2013 9:21:48 am
Mig2012 Joined: 09/26/2012 Posts: 547 Inactive	The number I posted for the AL is a league average, compiled from around 300 at bats. I’d say that is an acceptable sample size. You can’t take out of the equation the fact that AL managers don’t want their pitchers to take batting practice because that is the main reason why NL pitchers are more productive at bat. I agree NL managers have their everyday managing lives more complicated than the AL managers, but that doesn’t mean the DH rule favors AL teams over NL teams. It’s actually the other way around. The link you posted is about league comparison, not exactly the same as rule comparison, and the article gives a very clear explanation why AL comes out on top of NL: money. What I’m saying is a bit different. I’m saying all things equal (money wise) the DH rule favors the NL teams.

#4970	10/17/2013 11:03:40 am
weaponx84 Joined: 10/02/2013 Posts: 16 Inactive	300 AB's is a little over half a season for one everyday player. Which means that the AL pitchers really suck at hitting and that the NL pitchers don't suck as bad at but are still pretty terrible. I guess what I said before was clear in my head but not on the post. The NL is at a disadvantage because they do not have a DH for 2 reasons it makes the managers job harder meaning it is more difficult to create offense when you have slot in your everyday lineup that is not going to do much more than be an unproductive out and that NL teams either completely pass or are less likely to sign an older/defensively challenged player but who can still hit and contribute to the team offensively due to the fact that they don't have a DH and cannot use that player at any position effectively. I also don't understand how if a NL team drafts a pitcher it can take that pitcher 3 years before he potentially gets a chance to actually get an at bat. Rookie ball, low and high class A all use the DH. And even AA and AAA barely use it. So its not like the a pitching prospect is getting a ton of practice in the batting cage to begin with. But then he gets called up to the majors and your asking him to do something he clearly cannot do. So why have it to begin with then?

#4977	10/18/2013 3:35:06 am
Mig2012 Joined: 09/26/2012 Posts: 547 Inactive	True, NL teams restrain themselves from hiring veteran hitters with little defensive skills, but they always seem to find other hitters as good as those that they usually use as pinch hitters. You have a good example in your beloved Braves, Gattis. He pinched hit a lot this season, and I don’t see many AL DHs better than him. Then there’s the money situation. Those typical DHs don’t come cheap, and AL teams are able to hire them because they also have deeper pockets, and that has nothing to do with the DH rule. To me, the real difference in the DH rule is in the at bats of pitchers. The numbers I posted don’t even show the whole picture, because even when NL pitchers are put out, they are still more productive than AL pitchers as they are better at moving runners with sacrifice bunts and whatnot.

#4978	10/18/2013 8:49:22 am
admin Joined: 01/27/2010 Posts: 5023 Administrator	.224 for AL .341 for NL Wow...I'm surprised the spread is that big. However, both values are extremely low compared to regular hitters. Steve

#4979	10/18/2013 9:14:48 am
weaponx84 Joined: 10/02/2013 Posts: 16 Inactive	It would take a mindset change for sure. But look at the 2 teams in the NLCS right now, if everyone was healthy on both teams you could see a outfield of Puig, Kemp and Crawford and have Ethier as a DH for the Dodgers. Then a combo of 1B, 2B and DH with Craig, Adams and Carpenter for the Cardinals. I think it would add to an already exciting series. And yes I would have loved for Evan Gattis to be just a full time hitter.

#4980	10/18/2013 9:19:00 am
Mig2012 Joined: 09/26/2012 Posts: 547 Inactive	I agree with Steve, but that spread is bigger than the spread between DHs in the AL and PHs in the NL. Here's the league average OPS this regular season for those: .725 for AL DHs .621 for NL PHs These cold numbers don't show the whole picture though, as there are more players pinch hitting in the NL than designated hitters in the AL. For this comparison to be fair it would have to take in consideration only the best NL pinch hitters, and in that case the spread would be even smaller, if not on par. If we add to the equation the money muscle of the AL, it's clear to me the DH rule favors the NL teams over the AL ones. Sources: http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/batting/seasontype/2/split/86 http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/batting/seasontype/2/split/87 Updated Friday, October 18 2013 @ 9:19:48 am PDT

#4983	10/18/2013 10:01:03 am
weaponx84 Joined: 10/02/2013 Posts: 16 Inactive	I don't think that the AL has all the money. Yes the Yankees and Red Sox are always going to be top 5 payrolls, but 7 of the top 15 payrolls are in the NL. And even with those huge payrolls look at teams like the White Sox, Blue Jays and Angels, none of those teams really looked like a playoff/championship team at all this year. Even last year the Red Sox had a huge payroll and look were it got them. I think the Yankees and Red Sox will always be able to buy teams but you can say that for the Dodgers and Phillies as well. I am sure the Mets will be a high payroll team again soon and the Nationals may rival the Yankees and Dodgers in a few years with Strasburg, Zimmerman, Gonzalez and Harper's contract.

#4990	10/18/2013 4:02:57 pm
Mig2012 Joined: 09/26/2012 Posts: 547 Inactive	Well, it was your article that said the money was in the AL, and that makes sense to me too. The whole purpose of the DH rule was to bring more cash in because the average viewer prefers to watch games with more runs, so that probably made the AL richer.