Broken Bat - Discussion Forum: Left Handed Catchers

Forum >> Discussions >> Left Handed Catchers

Post ID	Date & Time	Game Date

#77211	09/07/2020 4:08:51 pm	Mar 7th, 2047
afreespirit Joined: 09/17/2011 Posts: 305 Inactive	You also don't understand anything about playing 2B. The first mistake most ignorant people make is thinking that 2B throw like they are OFs. Not the case. There are three types of throws you do from 2B. The most difficult throw is a hit to 2B. You have to turn 180 degrees and throw the ball. It doesn't matter what hand you are throwing. Its exactly the same. The only difference is if you turn to the left (towards the catcher) or to the right (towards the outfield). The easiest is a hit towards 1st. And this is pretty much always a shovel pass. Doesn't matter what hand you are throwing for a shovel pass. The third is a ball hit right at you. For the most part these are easy throws regardless. You will pivot and throw. Maybe a slight advantage for a righty. Swing and miss again Rock777. You still can’t grasp basic throwing mechanics (BTM) or basic physiology. For a RH the basic setup position where the glove side is towards the target remains unchanged while you move to your right or throwing arm side. Once the ball is in the glove you let your right leg continue forward, plant it transfer the ball and throw. There is no 180 degree turn for a RH. For a LH whose glove side is on the right, a full 180 degree turn is necessary to get into the correct position to throw to 1B. This is known as fielding to the glove side and throwing to the throwing arm side and it is the most difficult defensive play to complete. For a RH 2B this occurs when fielding to the left (1B) and throwing to 2B. This is the most difficult throw for a RH 2B. As for ‘shovel pass’ I think you’re mixing up your pseudo football experience with your pseudo baseball experience. The throw to 1B is always an overhand throw. You never get close enough to 1B to use any other type of throw. There are only two other types of non-overhand throws; the underhand feed and the backhand or power feed. Both are used at close ranges under 10 ft to the SS at 2B. The underhand is used when you are facing 2B and the backhand is used when you are facing home and 2B is on the right. The backhand is an unnatural throwing motion, so there’s not much velocity to it. It’s just a quick way to get the ball to the SS. But the real issue is the throw to 3B and 2B. If the throw to 1B is hard for a lefty SS, its obviously hard for a righty 2B (symmetry). This is the hallucination of someone with no on-field experience and no grasp of BTM. Further to this hallucination, 3B doesn’t appear in any throw from a 2B. Throwing the ball to 2B for a righty is the same as throw to 1B as a lefty (symmetry). Only if it is an overhand throw to 2B particularly when fielding to the left, see above. Many situations are too close to 2B for an overhand throw, also see above. Except unlike the throw to 1st (which is seldom time sensitive), the runner coming from 1B gets to second faster. The right handed fielder has their glove upside down, and has to make the same adjustments as a lefty throw to first. Their alignment when they receive the ball is the opposite of what it needs to be to make a quick throw. So a righty can make the quick throw to 1B (which they seldom need), but the lefty can make a quick throw to 2B (which is almost always needed). Quick throws are needed to complete the double play, not to get the runner at 2B. There are loads of examples of easy tosses to the SS for a third out. Take too much time to throw during a DP opportunity and while you get the lead runner you may not turn two. And the majority of throws are to 1B and those are the ones the LH is handicapped for. And then there’s the unrelated issue of the unmitigated disaster of a LH trying to turn a DP.

#77212	09/07/2020 4:09:05 pm	Mar 7th, 2047
afreespirit Joined: 09/17/2011 Posts: 305 Inactive	"A hard throwing LH", and this cements the fact that you know nothing about playing the game, LOL. Anyone who thinks arm strength defines your position is ignorant. Anyone who thinks being a lefty makes you more attractive at pitcher is also ignorant. By your logic, hard throwing righties are also going to be made into pitchers, and there isn't any such thing as a catcher, LOL. This is classic Rock777; take something out of context and twist the meaning into something else and then argue against that. It’s like he is genetically engineered to engage in dishonest debate. Many coaches in the minors will try to turn a strong arm into a pitcher. Mariano Rivera was a SS until 19yrs old. Dave Stieb was an OF in college ball. Strangely there are still plenty of catchers. But hey. If you think you know more than MLB scouts, I guess your ignorance isn't too surprising, LOL. There have been thousands of scout, coaches and managers over the past 100 years of professional baseball and how many LH catchers have they developed, drafted and used? Zero. But Rock777 with his pseudo baseball experience is insisting that all of that collective experience wrong. You’re a clown. MLB scouts have already made note that throwing lines / glove side aren't an issue. If they were an issue, it would mean that right handed catchers couldn't throw to 1B, which is obviously false. This is just gibberish. Another place that a lefty 2B has an advantage is charging a slow bouncer. This effectively becomes another 180 degree turn and throw, so it would seem like it would be the same. But depending where that bouncer is going, sometimes a righty is throwing around the runner. A lefty has a much cleaner sight line to first base in that case. There’s no such thing a ‘slow bouncer’. If a baseball is moving slowly it doesn’t have energy to bounce, it’s just going to roll. And a 2B is charging a slow ground ball that gets past the pitcher the RH has a natural throwing motion to get the ball quickly to 1B while a LH has to use a weak backhand. Figuring this out only requires an understanding of BTM so it’s not surprising that you get it wrong. Throwing around the runner? Wtf situation is that??

#77214	09/07/2020 6:05:45 pm	Mar 8th, 2047
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	That article completely misses the issue with left handed catchers throwing out a base stealer at 3B. It is because their glove side is to opposite of the target A pickoff is not the same as a stolen base. Your right, they aren't the same thing, 3B steals are rare and the runner is coming from 2B, not 2 feet off of 1st. Regardless, your glove side comment is obviously bogus, which is highlighted be the ability for a righty to throw to 1B (even with lefty batters). They can even throw to first and nail a runner after dropping a 3rd strike. As you have said, righties are at a clear disadvantage throwing to 1B, and yet they still succeed in pick-offs 40% of the time with a lefty at bat. I'm really not sure how you aren't getting it. Just being stubborn I assume. The 3B steal is extremely rare, and most of the time its going to be an out (regardless of the catcher's arm). BTW, a RH batter is in the way of both a lefty and a righty catcher. The righty has to throw around the batter to the front, the lefty has to throw around the batter to the rear. Its not that much of a difference. As can be seen in fact right handed catchers have no issue throwing to 1B with a lefty at bat. I played 2B up into college, and I can assure you most passes to 1B for a ball hit towards 1B are shovel passes. Apparently you haven't watched the game enough to know what a shovel pass is. Here is a link to a video of a shovel pass. Most of the time they are a bit more routine than that, many are underhanded tosses. Most passes from 2B to 1B aren't OF throws. I frequently did underhanded passes to 1B (especially during a shift). I think the diamond looks a lot bigger when you are watching from the stands 3B doesn’t appear in any throw from a 2B. Ok... Now I doubt you have ever even watched a game. Of course you throw to 3B. Only if it is an overhand throw to 2B particularly when fielding to the left, see above. Many situations are too close to 2B for an overhand throw, also see above. Now I see the issue, you think a righty 2B and a lefty 2B align themselves on the field the same way. A righty has more range to their left, so they play closer to 2B. A lefty has more range to their right, so they play closer to 1B. The shovel toss from 2B to SS for a righty is the same distance as the shovel toss for a lefty to 1B. The majority of throws are to 1B, but most throws to 1B are routine. Throws to 2B are more often not routine. The throw to 2B is more time critical for a 2B. And then there’s the unrelated issue of the unmitigated disaster of a LH trying to turn a DP. That's BS. A double play is easy for a lefty. They can turn with the throw and fire back to 1B. A righty has to turn into the throw. Its far more awkward for a righty. how many LH catchers have they developed, drafted and used You obviously didn't read the article. They talked to MLB scouts. MLB scouts said there wasn't a good reason for not having Lefty catchers. There’s no such thing a ‘slow bouncer’. More of your physics "knowledge", LOL. Of course there are slow bouncers. If you have time to get to the into the grass its slow. This is particularly common when the infield is playing in. Its painfully obvious you have never played the game (or you were watching butterflies in the OF). Updated Monday, September 7 2020 @ 9:39:27 pm PDT

#77237	09/09/2020 1:16:17 pm	Mar 10th, 2047
afreespirit Joined: 09/17/2011 Posts: 305 Inactive	Here is a video of a pickoff by a catcher that illustrates some of the things I’ve mentioned. https://www.mlb.com/cut4/willians-astudillo-made-a-pick-off-throw-to-first-without-looking-c268667674 There is a LH at the plate and a pinch runner at 1st. The hitter swings and misses and while off balance he stumbles across the plate and out of the batter’s box. This opens up the view for the catcher who can see that the runner is still looking at the pitcher and casually walking back to 1st. The catcher’s throw is deceptive nd fools just about everyone into believing he is going to toss the ball back to the pitcher. This illustrates my point about pickoffs being at the discretion of the catcher and why it is an invalid comparison to steals at 3B. Also note that the 1B is right handed and has to turn counter clockwise to apply the tag (pause at 25 sec to see this). Because he has to turn, the runner has a bit more time to try to get back to 1st. The tag is made about 2ft short of the bag with the runner trying to dive back. A LH with his glove arm on the same side as the runner would have applied the tag much sooner. This is one of reasons why LH are preferred at 1B.

#77238	09/09/2020 4:12:29 pm	Mar 11th, 2047
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	It is a good example. Nothing hard about any part of that play. I didn't see the catcher stumbling over the throw, and it was an easy tag at first. I think this video does a great job at illustrating my point that it is hyperbole to claim handedness has a huge impact on the game. A lefty catcher would throw to 3B with just as much ease. Not sure how you figure turning counter clockwise gives the runner more time. It means the tag goes in the same direction as the throw (one fluid motion), and the tag can happen closer to the plate. A lefty would have been tagging away from the plate which actually gives a bigger window for the runner to get back to first. A righty tags across first base into the runner, so that is the optimal tag for reducing the runner's opportunity to get back. A lefty 1B has to chase the runner with the tag. Defending from the base is always going to be more efficient than defending towards the base. Updated Wednesday, September 9 2020 @ 9:29:34 pm PDT

#77260	09/10/2020 4:24:52 pm	Mar 13th, 2047
Brewnoe Joined: 03/25/2014 Posts: 816 Fall River Naughty Dawgs IV.5	Nice back pick I will still take http://brokenbat.org/player/238496

#77308	09/11/2020 2:02:49 pm	Mar 14th, 2047
afreespirit Joined: 09/17/2011 Posts: 305 Inactive	Game 3 of the ALDCS in 2001 saw one of the most incredible defensive plays in recent years. The Athletics won the first two games against the Yankees and in game three the Yankees had 1-0 lead in the bottom of the 7th. There were 2 out with a slow runner, Jason Giambi on 1st. The hitter pulled the pitch into the right field corner for an easy double. Giambi got waved home. The throw from RF was a poor one, going high and missing both cutoff men. Yankee SS Derek Jeter ran across the diamond where he caught the throw on a bounce about 40 ft from home. He then makes a backhand, flip or shovel pass (whatever you feel like calling it) to the catcher. You can see that this type of throw is very low velocity compared to an overhand throw because of its unnatural throwing motion. But when time is of the essence and you are out of position to throw properly, this is what you resort to. Anyone who thinks that this is a routine type of throw to 1B for a 2B has no idea what they are talking about. The catcher then reaches back with his left glove hand and manages to tag Giambi on the calf of his right leg while it is in mid air about 2 inches above the plate. A LH catcher could never make this play. He can’t tag to the left since it is his off glove side while from the right is the wrong side (1B side) of the plate and meets the runner just after he touches the plate from the 3B side. If the Yankees had used a LH catcher, the game would’ve been tied with the winning run at 3rd. So the tag at home is a big deal after all. The Yankees won the game and went on to win the series 3-2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5qW27Xj7EU

#77310	09/11/2020 2:34:17 pm	Mar 15th, 2047
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	Why would he tag to his left. He tags to his right. With a good throw, he can tag right at the plate. Again tagging across the plate is better than chasing the runner. A lefty catcher would have been an advantage in this particular case. It seems to be a recurring theme that you think a lefty and right would position themselves in the exact same location and that a lefty would try to replicate a righty's motion... Kind of like expect a left hander to write with their right hand, LOL. I agree, a throw from SS to C is not a routine throw from 2B to 1B. That seems pretty obvious though, so I'm not sure what your point was... EDIT: I also noticed the announcer thought he fielded it bare handed, LOL. I also noticed the announcer called it a "shovel". A term which you had apparently never heard before in all your years as a baseball fan. Updated Friday, September 11 2020 @ 3:24:10 pm PDT

#77312	09/11/2020 3:11:09 pm	Mar 15th, 2047
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	Since you don't seem to understand what a routine shovel pass looks like. Here is an instructional video. The shovel from SS to 2B is exactly the same as the shovel from 2B to 1B. Most of the time its underhanded, but it can be more of a straight toss like those extreme examples linked above. You'll also note the instructor calls it both a "flip" and a "shovel" during the video. Seems like its not just me with my "pseudo" experience who calls it a shovel

#77318	09/12/2020 10:11:55 am	Mar 16th, 2047
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	Here is a more typical underhanded shovel pass. As mentioned previously, a lefty 2B aligns closer to 1B. Their alignment is very similar to a SS. This is EXACTLY what a routine throw to 1B looks like. Except it is even less rushed when there is no runner on base. Again, no gymnastics or body contortions are involved. All of that is just handist propaganda. You will often see 2B throwing a wrist flick, sidearm, underhanded, even the occasional backhand. We seldom throw like OFs. There isn't a big windup. So any pseudo-physics arguments based on OF style throws are simply bogus. Here is a good example of a play where a lefty 2B would have been an advantage. Dozier (sidearming) has to turn 180 degrees after catching the throw to get it over to first. But he has to catch and set against the throw and then throw through the path of the runner. A lefty would have been turning with the throw and would have had a wide open lane to 1B. Not a huge advantage, but handedness advantages never are huge.