Broken Bat - Discussion Forum: Most common conversions.

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Post ID	Date & Time	Game Date

#74830	06/22/2020 12:52:31 pm	Mar 6th, 2046
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	Accept there aren't really "related" positions. 2B is about as similar to SS as RF is. They are really completely different positions with completely different instincts and instinctual patterns. You don't want you 2B playing SS and instinctually tossing it over to second base. That's going to end up in the visiting dug out. Sure pop-ups will be similar, but catching a pop up really has nothing to do with fielding a position. Fielding ground balls also has nothing to do with fielding a position. That's just Fielding. Position knowledge is more about the automatic response you have off the bat and after you have the ball. Not the act of procuring the ball, but rather your own positioning and movements before/after getting the ball. Learning how to play 2B doesn't give you a head start on learning how to play SS. The only positions I would consider to be similar are LF and RF. But those are already treated as identical in the game. Even CF is treated as identical when really it isn't. BTW, I'm pretty sure the position penalties are already weighted by position.

#74831	06/22/2020 12:54:56 pm	Mar 6th, 2046
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	In real life playing out of position means more mental errors, not necessarily actual errors. But I think its fine that Steve abstracted it to actual errors since mental errors are probably not a thing in the engine.

#74834	06/22/2020 1:46:08 pm	Mar 6th, 2046
Seca Joined: 05/05/2014 Posts: 5198 Waterloo Dinosaurs Legends	That post is such a steaming pile I don't even know where to start. Its so absurd it must be a flat out troll? I will address: BTW, I'm pretty sure the position penalties are already weighted by position. Seems more likely the additional errors are because of the greater number of chances. Fielding % don't look much different. James just hit upper case 2B last season and averaged 11 fld. He put up .957 fld %. The aforementioned 3B Meadows had 17 fld, noticeably more position knowledge, and had a nearly identical .962 fld %. A single example doesn't prove a point. Errors are especially noisy data. But if middle infielders were even more error prone I think we'd see some astronomical error totals that defied noise.

#74836	06/22/2020 2:17:45 pm	Mar 6th, 2046
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	I've seen OFs who seem to perform just as well in OF as those with more position experience. Might just be small sample sizes. I was just under the impression that it was already weighted. As to rest of the post, if you think its garbage, then you've obviously never played the game in real life. You don't think about what you are going to do with the ball or where to move when the ball is hit, its all instinctual once you have learned a position. My primary positions were 2B/3B, I could play those positions with my brain turned off, but I was a train wreck the few games I played at SS. You might think its close to 3B, but its not. All the rules of the position are different.

#74837	06/22/2020 2:23:51 pm	Mar 6th, 2046
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	Half of playing defense is knowing where you should be and who you should be covering. And you expect everyone else to be in the right place as well. Having your SS cover the wrong field position when the ball is hit to RF because he is used to playing 3B, means a mental error that can cost you a run. That is what position experience is. Knowing where to be at all times, and instinctual knowing that you can toss the ball to 2B and your SS is going to be there to catch it (without even needing to look). Updated Monday, June 22 2020 @ 2:25:45 pm PDT

#74842	06/22/2020 3:08:45 pm	Mar 7th, 2046
FreddyThe2nd Joined: 06/08/2020 Posts: 163 Tombstone Pistoleros II.2	Clearly players should learn defensive positions a little quicker. But also it may be cool to not have position experience declines or at least decline slower. If your guy is 3.0 then you could train another position. You would think that if a player knows how to play outfield or 1B after playing AAA ball then he would be able to keep up those skills whether or not they were playing the position much in games. They practice every day right? In the majors, there is no option to practice another position other than live game play.

#74847	06/22/2020 4:54:03 pm	Mar 8th, 2046
Seca Joined: 05/05/2014 Posts: 5198 Waterloo Dinosaurs Legends	then you've obviously never played the game in real life. Hehe. That's mighty good trolling. FWIW I played from the age of 3 to 37. I'm Canadian, and when I was a kid there was no hardball, only fastball. I was ok. Made Canadian Nationals one year. Not that that is a huge feat or anything. Had to drive to Nova Scotia from Ontario. Was memorable. I could play those positions with my brain turned off I'm guessing you weren't very good? Professional ball players think. There are conscious decisions. They look at the runners on base and think about where they are going to throw if its hit to their left or right, if its fast or slow, if its an infield pop, if the runner starts. They look at the pitch call and lean one way if its a fastball and another way if its off speed. Real baseball players think. But you win. Let's look at the steaming pile. Your contention is that position knowledge is instincts and instinctual patterns. I don't agree with that. Especially in the BrokenBat context. Your first step is encapsulated by range. Decisions on where to throw are incorporated into arm. Position knowledge is a modifier. Its not a specific skill, it makes you a little bit better at all your skills. This is in line with the definition in the Rules: A superior rating at a position will affect all aspects of defense at that position including catching, fielding, throwing and more complex operations like turning double plays etc. But let's go with your definition that position knowledge is instincts. So now we've got: 2B is about as similar to SS as RF is Let's think this through. SS stands about 120 feet from the batter. SS's primary thought is ground ball, then liner/fly. SS's first movement is lateral - X axis. SS throws are almost always to the right, have low arch, and primarily rely on accuracy. You can't be 4 feet off target. A SS watches the pitch selection and leans according to the pitch call. A SS has to communicate with the 2B before the pitch to see who is covering. A SS has to break sometimes on a SB which means they have to "reverse course" on a ball in play. A SS sometimes has to make a throw with a base runner bearing down on him. Now RF. A RF stands ~270 feet from the batter. A RF's first thought is fielding a fly ball. A RF first movement is about depth. Y axis. A RF throws primarily to the left. RF throws have a higher arch and rely more on power and less on accuracy - being 4 feet off target is ok if you have a cannon. A RF may get pitch signals from the 2B (he's thinking!), and would hedge in on offspeed. A RF rarely communicates with the CF before plays; important communication occurs during the play. A RF never breaks before the pitch so doesn't have to "reverse course". A RF never has to worry about a runner bearing down on him. Ok. So now lets move to 2B. A 2B stands ~120 from the batter (sounds like SS). A 2B first thought is a ground ball (sounds like SS). A 2B first step is lateral. (sounds like SS). A 2B almost always throws right (sounds like SS). Throws have a low arch, and rely on accuracy (sounds like SS). A 2B has to communicate with the SS to see who is covering (sounds like SS). A 2B has to cover the bag for SB, and sometimes has to reverse course when the ball's in play (sounds like SS). A 2B sometimes has to make a throw with a runner bearing down on him (sounds like SS). Geez. Sure seems like a lot of similarities between SS and 2B? Odd none of those instinctual patterns transfer 60 feet to the right. Is there a distance where the instincts fail? It's all discrete, right? Sure 3B and SS can sometimes get to the same ball, but a 3B can't play SS because his instincts are all wrong. Same behind the bag at 2B. It kind of looks continuous, but its discrete? A SS is fine +- 20 feet, but go 21 and the instincts are zeroed? You don't want you 2B playing SS and instinctually tossing it over to second base. I'm starting to think you didn't play above T-ball. That is what position experience is. Knowing where to be at all times, Did you keep a book on players when you played Rock777? Probably not. You didn't think. I did. You know what? My book worked equally well when I played LF, CF or RF (I'm left handed and was the fastest runner on almost every team I ever played for; I didn't get to play infield). As an infielder your book would be pretty effective shifting from SS to 2B. You know what doesn't work? Taking your book from CF to SS. Half of playing defense is knowing where you should be and who you should be covering. Things have changed since you played T-ball. Guys have cheat sheets in their pocket or strapped to their wrist. Bench coaches (or other players) actually yell at you and tell you where to go if you are dogging your coverage. With all the coaches and support a hot dog vendor could do a pretty good job of being in the right place. What's your take on the shift Rock777? Surely moving a 3B to the other side of 2B turns him into a useless pylon? All his instincts are screwed! You need to start writing some letters to analytics departments. I could go on, but I'm tired. The victory is yours Rock777. You posted garbage, and baited me into responding. Bravo.

#74850	06/22/2020 5:16:23 pm	Mar 8th, 2046
Ced Joined: 11/07/2014 Posts: 626 Denver Broncos IV.4	I'm starting to think you didn't play above T-ball. I just 'member being like 5 years old and my coach saying we were gonna work on the "fundamentals" and I thought he said "fun to get medals". We eventually won a cup instead and I was pissed to the maximum about not getting any medal that I could recall.

#74852	06/22/2020 5:29:25 pm	Mar 8th, 2046
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	I think its funny you accuse me of trolling my own thread I don't know how long I played. I don't remember T-ball starting at 3. I played into college, and then I played softball when I got into the business world. I'm not even aware of any recreational leagues around me that would have allowed playing baseball past college. I was a very good defender. Pretty shocking that you played baseball for 34 years and still struggled with the basics of the game. Even more shocking that you never had a coach that taught you about the importance of positioning. You are wrong. Its instinct. By the time a good player has played the game for that long, those decisions have become hard wired into the brain. You don't make a conscious decision to lean one way. Its automatic. That's what happens when you really learn a position. Range, Arm, etc. are physical attributes. You don't throw harder or more accurate by making a conscious decision. Its not a brain decision, its a muscle decision. Position Knowledge isn't a modifier, its a completely different set of tools. And you completely ignored my post. Fielding a ground ball has nothing to do with position knowledge. So how far away you are from the batter is completely irrelevant. Learning shifts is part of baseball. A 3B playing a shift is NOT playing SS. Its still completely different with a completely different set of rules as to where you need to go once the ball is hit. It seems like you have a complete lack of understanding of what position knowledge is, because you keep trying to tie it back to physical skills. I find it very hard to believe you actually played the game for 34 years. But OF is certainly the easiest position to learn, so maybe that's the issue. You really didn't find CF to be any different than RF? That amazes me... I kind of feel bad for your infielders. A 2B has to cover the bag for SB, and sometimes has to reverse course when the ball's in play (sounds like SS). I'm glad you told us you never played in the infield, LOL. Updated Monday, June 22 2020 @ 5:51:16 pm PDT

#74855	06/22/2020 5:45:24 pm	Mar 8th, 2046
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9592 Haverhill Halflings III.1	RE 2B SS RF There is a lot to learn as a 2B or SS. Learning one position doesn't mean you learn the other. RF is pretty easy. Not a lot of variations of what you have to do. I would attest that it is much easier for a 2B to learn how to play RF than it is for a 2B to learn how to play SS. BTW, I played all three of those positions at different points in time, but 2B is the only one I was really good at. Maybe I am underestimating RF, but it didn't seem all that difficult when I did play it. No where near as many situational variables to keep track of.