Broken Bat - Discussion Forum: Batting Order

Forum >> Discussions >> Batting Order

Post ID	Date & Time	Game Date	Function

#22671	08/20/2015 9:43:18 pm
Crazy Li Joined: 01/25/2015 Posts: 879 Inactive	I'd be hard-pressed to believe you could get more than 5 out of just shuffling a batting order. The batting order REALLY isn't that significant. Most changes you make will result in less impact on wins than that. 5 was basically a best-case scenario of going from the absolute worst to absolute best. And even then what is "best" is very hard to determine. You would have to run the same exact lineup with the same players at the same skill level across several seasons in the exact same order and then compare that to the same amount of seasons in a different order to get a real sample that suggests anything. That can't really be done (aside from by the sim engine's creator). So people can argue all they want about what the optimal line-up is, but I don't think anyone will be able to really "prove" it. I also don't believe there is an objective "best". What ends up with the best results varies heavily by team structure, opponents, situations, and random chance/variance.

#22672	08/20/2015 10:07:25 pm
tc_ferdzz Joined: 11/13/2011 Posts: 135 Inactive	sorry it's taken me so long to get back, i've been busy... sure 50 runs sounds like a lot, but 50 extra runs over a year is only a little under 1 extra run every 3 games, so not going to amount to tons of extra wins, but if you miss/make the playoffs/demotion by less than 5 wins, then 5 wins in a season is significant... in all the pro baseball teams, and (this may not be the most reliable source) when you do an "auto-lineup" in a baseball video game, they usually put a fast high batting average hitter as a lead up, then have 2 or 3 power hitters, then the hitters get progressively weaker leaving your weakest (and usually the pitcher if they are in the NL) for last...this is what i qualify as a "traditional" batting order... in my teams, i'd set up with 2 stronger hitters (hitting and bat control ratings) and then follow it up with a power hitter, with this lineup, for every inning, if at least 1 person got on base (and with 2 high BA hitters, hoping that's likely) you'll get a power guy to hopefully come in and bang them all home...so, in my opinion it is "non-traditional"... as stated, my dramatic fall may of all been a coincidence, but it's a a large coincidence that it just happened to come about at the same time i changed the batting order to the more "traditional" one... i do try and base my team around defense, i draft rookies that have strong defensive scouting reports, and when i sign free agents, i try to get strong defenders and hopefully the bats improve over time... many will say that you can't win if you don't hit in runs, but with a strong defense, you can't lose if you don't allow runs, usually someone will get lucky with a few hits, but defense is (almost) always about the skill... now i don't have a great baseball mine, i try to determine my own logic, but maybe within the baseball world, real world logic gets a bit twisted, but i'll try to share what i thought in my defensive philosophies ... i thought a LF needs a better arm because he's farther from 1st base, so would need a stronger arm to get it there, i know the chances of an out at first from LF probably aren't high, but with a stronger arm, that increases the chances, at all infield positions i basically look at "fielding" and "range" first, it's true with the corner infielders, the amount of fair territory they have to defend is cut in half, but if you can make a great catch on a foul ball because you have good range, it's an Out that might not of happened if that player had shorter range... most of my infield players are where they are because that's what i drafted them as and i thought that their attributes were good for what i wanted at that position and rather than move them and get an out of position penalty, i thought that they'd suffice at the position they were at...

#22673	08/21/2015 3:51:48 am
newtman Joined: 11/02/2013 Posts: 3343 Inactive	Steve... statistically speaking 5 games out of 160 is not significant. Just saying. But I'll do anything to win one more game... significant or not. Considering winning one more game just won the playoffs for you... 4-3 over me. Updated Friday, August 21 2015 @ 3:54:06 am PDT

#22675	08/21/2015 4:11:46 am
Haselrig Joined: 04/13/2014 Posts: 2790 Novi Doubledays III.4	One game got a lot of people to the playoffs too, so I wouldn't discount it if you can get it by fiddling with lineups a bit.

#22699	08/21/2015 11:30:03 am
Crazy Li Joined: 01/25/2015 Posts: 879 Inactive	I guess for me the problem is knowing what kind of fiddling could even get you a single win more. And is that result consistent? With unchanging lineups, a full season sim can vary by as much as 40 wins. So how do we determine the impact of the lineup? That "traditional" lineup of getting a fast base-stealer up first is a terrible strategy in the first place. Who cares if the fastest guy is leading off if he gets on base less than 1/3 of his ABs for example? He's not really setting the tables in this case to even use that speed. Here's another factor: the leadoff guy is only certain to lead off in the first inning. After that, your strategy for constructing your inning is out the window potentially. And this may not apply to BB, but in real life, the top of the order has a high chance of going 1-2-3. This is because they're still feeling out the pitcher and trying to see pitches. They won't likely do their best the first time through.

#22706	08/21/2015 1:14:25 pm
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9591 Haverhill Halflings III.1	Yeah, I don't think putting a fast guy first is really the "traditional" lineup. In reality its putting your best batter who also can steal. That way when he gets on (because he has one of the top 3 OBPs on your team), then he can get into scoring position. I consider this pretty traditional: 1st - best OBP with a preference for SB. 2nd - great OBP, SBs still a plus. 3rd - good OBP, a little power is a plus 4th - Great slugging and OBP 5th - Best slugging 6th - next best slugging 7th - next best hitter 8th - biggest loser 9th - Decent OBP and speed is a plus Part of what you are missing, is that the leadoff hitter gets a lot more ABs than the rest of the team. By positioning guys in a certain order you can gain some situational advantage (if you bat power first his solo shots don't get you a lot). But its most important to bat your best players near the top so that they will get more ABs. Updated Friday, August 21 2015 @ 1:17:41 pm PDT

#22707	08/21/2015 1:15:13 pm
admin Joined: 01/27/2010 Posts: 4985 Administrator	I think baseball has changed a bit and the batting order of today is different that the "traditional" batting order of yesteryear. I don't think stealing and small ball (bunting, H&R from the 2 hole) are as valued as before. And I think most teams are looking more at OBP than batting average at the top of the lineup. Some base path speed is nice at the top of the order, but I don't think most teams steal as much as they used to. Steve

#22708	08/21/2015 1:59:20 pm
Crazy Li Joined: 01/25/2015 Posts: 879 Inactive	Yeah... I read an article that picked apart the old traditional lineup and said how they'd prefer to do things... but it's still all subjective. Since I don't remember where it is right now, I'll try to summarize from memory. Old Way: 1. Best combination of OBP+Speed 2. Next OBP guy 3. Best "hitter" (usually OBPS guy) 4. Best slugger/power guy 5-9 Descending order of SLG with 9 sometimes being used for guys who are similar to #1 but without the OBP numbers This article suggested instead: Start with #2 and put your best hitter here... specifically best OBP Then put your best power hitter in #4 Put your next best OBP #1 Next-best slugger in 5 Good singles hitter in 6 More power in 7 Weakest hitter in 8 Good OBP again in 9 And then whatever's leftover in 3, arguing that this is a throw-away position since most of the time, the #3 hitter comes up with 2 outs and nobody on. I've tried this setup before and it never really gave me a noticeable boost in offense, so there really is no "right" way in my book.

#22710	08/21/2015 3:19:37 pm
Rock777 Joined: 09/21/2014 Posts: 9591 Haverhill Halflings III.1	As was mentioned previously, there is a big difference between noticeable and impactful. BTW, I think I saw the same article, and I think you are underselling the #3 position a bit. #3 gets more ABs then 2/3 of the lineup, so you still want a good hitter there. An #4 is your best power and OBP hitter. If its a pure power guy I believe they suggested pushing him down to 5 or 6. This is for the same reason you mentioned above, if the first three go 1-2-3, then #4 is often leading off the 2nd. Updated Friday, August 21 2015 @ 3:20:38 pm PDT

#22717	08/21/2015 4:22:47 pm
Crazy Li Joined: 01/25/2015 Posts: 879 Inactive	I'm not underselling #3, the article was. I'm only repeating what I remember reading there, not expressing my own thoughts. I'll try to re-find it when I get home to see if I remembered stuff wrong but I'm pretty sure 3 was spoken of as throw-away which shocked me personally which is why it stuck in memory.